A couple of years ago, sitting beneath shade trees in Saratoga Springs, New York City, I had a two-hour conversation with Bob Dylan that touched on Malcolm X, the Reign Of Terror, Franklin Roosevelt and the 2nd World War. At one point, he asked me what I learnt about the Sand Creek Massacre of1864 When I addressed, “Inadequate,” he got up from his collapsible chair, climbed up into his trip bus and came back 5 minutes later with copies explaining how United States soldiers had actually butchered numerous tranquil Cheyenne and Arapahoe in southeastern Colorado.
Provided the nature of our relationship, I felt comfy contacting him in April after, in the middle of the coronavirus crisis, he all of a sudden released his epic, 17- minute tune Murder The majority of Foul, about the assassination of previous United States president John F Kennedy. Although he had not done a major interview beyond his own website given that winning the Nobel Reward in Literature in 2016, he accepted a phone chat from his Malibu, California, home, which ended up being his only interview before the release Friday of Rough and Rowdy Ways, his first album of original tunes considering that Tempest in2012
Like a lot of discussions with Dylan, Rough and Rowdy Ways covers complex territory: hypnotic trances and hymns, bold blues, like yearnings, comic juxtapositions, prankster wordplay, patriotic ardour, maverick steadfastness, lyrical cubism, twilight-age reflections and spiritual satisfaction.
In the high-octane showstopper Bye-bye Jimmy Reed, Dylan honours the Mississippi bluesman with dragon-fierce harmonica riffs and bawdy lyrics. In the sluggish blues Crossing the Rubicon, he feels “the bones underneath my skin” and considers his choices before death: “Three miles north of purgatory– one action from the terrific beyond/ I prayed to the cross, and I kissed the girls, and I crossed the Rubicon.”
Former US president Barack Obama (R) presenting the Presidential Medal of Flexibility to United States musician Bob Dylan in2012 Photo: Mandel Nganmandel Ngan?AFP/ Getty Images
Mother of Muses is a hymn to the natural world, gospel choirs and military men like William Tecumseh Sherman and George Patton, “who cleared the path for Presley to sing/ who cleared the path for Martin Luther King.” And Secret West (Thinker’s Pirate) is a heavenly meditation on immortality set on a drive down Path 1 to the Florida Keys, with Donnie Herron’s accordion directing the Band’s Garth Hudson. In it he admires Ginsberg, Corso and Kerouac.
Possibly someday he’ll write a song or paint a photo to honour George Floyd. In the 1960 s and 1970 s, following the work of black leaders of the civil rights motion, Dylan likewise worked to expose the conceit of white opportunity and the viciousness of racial hatred in America through songs like George Jackson, Just a Pawn in Their Game and The Lonely Death of Hattie Carroll. One of his most fierce lines about policing and race was available in his 1976 ballad Cyclone: “In Paterson that’s just the way things go/ If you’re black you may too disappoint up on the street/ Unless you wish to draw the heat.”
I had a quick follow-up with Dylan (79), one day after Floyd was killed in Minneapolis. Clearly shaken by the scary that had happened in his home state, he sounded depressed. “It sickened me no end to see George tortured to death like that,” he stated. “It was beyond ugly. Let’s hope that justice comes swift for the Floyd household and for the country.”
These are edited excerpts from the two discussions.
Was Murder Many Foul written as a nostalgic eulogy for a long-lost time? I don’t believe of Murder A lot of Foul as a glorification of the previous or some kind of send-off to a lost age.
Were those prose notes for an essay, or were you hoping to compose a tune like Murder Many Foul for a long time? I’m not mindful of ever desiring to compose a tune about JFK.
Were you surprised that this 17- minute-long tune was your first No 1 Signboard hit? I was, yeah.
I believe about the death of the human race. Every human being, no matter how strong or mighty, is frail when it comes to death. I think about it in general terms, not in an individual way.
Bob Dylan in New York City,1963 Picture: William C Eckenberg/The New York City Times
There is a lot of apocalyptic belief in Murder Many Foul. Are you stressed that in 2020 we’re past the moment of truth? That technology and hyperindustrialisation are going to work versus human life in the world? Sure, there’s a great deal of factors to be concerned about that. There’s absolutely a lot more stress and anxiety and uneasiness around now than there utilized to be. That only uses to people of a specific age like me and you, Doug. We tend to live in the past, however that’s only us. Children don’t have that propensity. They have no past, so all they know is what they see and hear, and they’ll think anything. In 20 or 30 years from now, they’ll be at the leading edge. When you see somebody that is 10 years old, he’s going to be in control in 20 or 30 years, and he will not have a hint about the world we knew. Youths who remain in their teenagers now have no memory lane to keep in mind. So it’s probably best to enter that frame of mind as quickly as we can since that’s going to be the reality.
As far as technology goes, it makes everyone susceptible. However youths don’t think like that. They might care less. Telecommunications and advanced innovation is the world they were born into. Our world is already obsolete.
A line in False Prophet– “I’m the last of the best, you can bury the rest”– reminded me of the current deaths of John Prine and Little Richard. Did you listen to their music after they passed as a sort of homage? Both of those men were victorious in their work. They don’t require any person doing homages. Everybody knows what they did and who they were. And they deserve all the regard and praise that they got. No doubt about it. Little Richard I grew up with. And he was there before me. Lit a match under me. Tuned me in to things I never ever would have known on my own. I think of him differently. John followed me. So it’s not the exact same thing. I acknowledge them in a different way.
Why didn’t more individuals pay attention to Little Richard’s gospel music? Most likely due to the fact that gospel music is the music of great news and in these days there simply isn’t any. It stirs people up.
On the other hand, gospel news is exemplary. It can give you guts. You can rate your life accordingly, or attempt to, anyway. And you can do it with honour and principles. There are theories of fact in gospel, however to the majority of people it’s unimportant. Their lives are lived out too quickly. A lot of bad influences. Sex and politics and murder is the way to go if you want to get individuals’s attention. It delights us, that’s our issue.
Bob Dylan in London in1966 Photograph: Blank Archives/Getty Images
I think he was looked at as an outsider or a trespasser in the gospel world. His gospel music wasn’t accepted in either world. Both are what we used to call individuals of high character: genuine, plenty skilled and who understood themselves, weren’t swayed by anything from the outside.
However so was Robert Johnson, much more so. Robert was among the most innovative geniuses of all time. He most likely had no audience to speak of. He was up until now ahead of his time that we still have not caught up with him. His status today could not be any greater. In his day, his tunes should have puzzled people. It just goes to show you that terrific individuals follow their own path.
Those kinds of tunes for me simply come out of the blue, out of thin air. None of those songs with designated names are deliberately written. The folk tradition has a long history of tunes about individuals.
You honour lots of fantastic recording artists in your songs. Your mention of Don Henley and Glenn Frey on Murder A lot of Foul came off as a little bit of a surprise to me. What Eagles songs do you enjoy the most? New Kid in Town, Life in the Quick Lane, Pretty Maids All in a Row. That might be among the very best tunes ever.
You also refer to Art Pepper, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Thelonious Monk, Oscar Peterson and Stan Getz in Murder Most Foul. I think they were all jazz vocalists. Jazz goes back to the Roaring Twenties.
Has any of it ever motivated me? Well, yeah. Probably a lot. Ella Fitzgerald as a singer motivates me. Oscar Peterson as a piano player, absolutely. Has any of it motivated me as a songwriter? Yeah, “Ruby, My Dear” by Monk. That tune set me off in some instructions to do something along those lines. I remember listening to that over and over.
Bob Dylan carrying out at the Vieilles Charrues music celebration in western France in2012 Photo: Fred Tanneau/AFP/Getty
What role does improvisation play in your music? None at all. There’s no way you can change the nature of a song when you have actually created it. You can set different guitar or piano patterns upon the structural lines and go from there, however that’s not improvisation. Improvisation leaves you available to good or bad performances, and the concept is to remain constant. You basically play the very same thing again and again in the most perfect way you can.
The last two verses radiate a take-no-prisoners stoicism, while the rest of the tune is an amusing confessional. Did you have fun grappling with inconsistent impulses of yourself and human nature in basic?